Are we becoming obsolete?

[trekker]

Yahoo has listed GPS devices on their list of '10 things not to buy in 2014'!!!



Terry

[oj88]

No surprises there. But I think the GPS being referred to here are those that are single-function types. With smartphones, tablets and including OEM and aftermarket car radios taking on the Navigation role, it's only going to be a matter of time before the Nuvi's and Zumo's would go the way of the phones of Nokia and Ericsson from the 1990's-2000's.

The article is somewhat inline with the results of Garmin's financial report for 3Q2013. Here, they noted the decline of Personal Navigation Devices (PND): http://finance.yahoo.com/news/garmin...110000548.html

Auto/Mobile:

The automotive/mobile segment posted a revenue decline of 16% as PND sales continued to decline as forecast. We anticipate PND volumes will continue to decline 20% globally in 2014 and are managing our business accordingly. Gross and operating margins in the quarter were 46% and 17%, respectively, as the segment remains highly profitable even while we continue to invest in research and development efforts related to long-term OEM opportunities. We look forward to seeing evidence of our success with the launch of Garmin navigation in some 2014 Mercedes Benz models.

[Borgie]

Might be a good thing for us here if it will bring the prices of those nifty Garmin PNDs down to more affordable levels.

[doki]

the devices might be obsolete in the future. but never the RG Map as long as we keep on updating it.

[Deobulakenyo]

the devices might be obsolete in the future. but never the RG Map as long as we keep on updating it.

I agree. the device is just a medium. a container for the functionality which in the case of a GPS is a road guide functionality

as long as RG keeps on updating then the functionality will not be obsolete, thus the device, albeit being single function only, will still be relevant.

I prefer a basic gps with RG map


than a highend garmin model without RG

the trick is to keep RG alive

[Borgie]

the devices might be obsolete in the future. but never the RG Map as long as we keep on updating it.

I agree. the device is just a medium. a container for the functionality which in the case of a GPS is a road guide functionality

as long as RG keeps on updating then the functionality will not be obsolete, thus the device, albeit being single function only, will still be relevant.

Methinks it will take a while before those GPS devices become obsolete in this country. For me personally, I prefer a standalone dedicated GPS device in my vehicle rather than a smartphone or tablet. Many motorist are not even aware of these devices, especially outside of Metro Manila. Wonder what percentage of drivers use GPS devices in their vehicles in the whole country. I'd hazard a guesstimate of less than 10%.

But these devices becoming cheaper due to their being considered obsolete, combined with more people becoming aware of the necessity and importance of having a navigation device when they travel or commute, highlights the importance of having an updated map to make them relevant. This will bring in more contributors and hopefully we continue to make and get the best updated in the country!

And lastly, even if the GPS device indeed becomes obsolete, RG never will be because whatever device or app out there that replaces the GPS device will still need a map. And this map to be relevant needs to be updated. So a big thank you to us contributors and let's all continue to be a part of this Philippines GPS mapping project. Mabuhay Roadguide!

[jnieurzyla]

I agree in parts with you Borgie, I to also prefer a devoted unit, but as these become obsolete, Garmin will introduce new specialised units with better software for creating tracks etc, but they will also up the unit prices, so that their profits will also increase. They may even block the use of 3rd party software therefore forcing users to use Garmin only, which would cause severe problems for RG.

The use and expansion of the gps outside Metro Manila, will only become apparent once the government actually starts a major enhancement of the roads system, allowing private cars easier access and less rough roads.

But this also depends on the routes being kept upto date, which with the lack of interest from Google and Bing being apparent for updates, will be an uphill slog, as it will require more of us actually travelling these routes for the accuracy and filling in the blank areas which have not been mapped.

Just my 10 cents worth.

John

Methinks it will take a while before those GPS devices become obsolete in this country. For me personally, I prefer a standalone dedicated GPS device in my vehicle rather than a smartphone or tablet. Many motorist are not even aware of these devices, especially outside of Metro Manila. Wonder what percentage of drivers use GPS devices in their vehicles in the whole country. I'd hazard a guesstimate of less than 10%.

But these devices becoming cheaper due to their being considered obsolete, combined with more people becoming aware of the necessity and importance of having a navigation device when they travel or commute, highlights the importance of having an updated map to make them relevant. This will bring in more contributors and hopefully we continue to make and get the best updated in the country!

And lastly, even if the GPS device indeed becomes obsolete, RG never will be because whatever device or app out there that replaces the GPS device will still need a map. And this map to be relevant needs to be updated. So a big thank you to us contributors and let's all continue to be a part of this Philippines GPS mapping project. Mabuhay RoadGuide!

[Borgie]

I also agree with you kuya John. However, I don't think that if Garmin introduces new specialised units with better software and upping the unit prices that we in the Philippines will be affected that much. Or even if they block the use of 3rd party mapping softwares. As long as Roadguide continues making maps for these "obsolete" Garmin devices we'll be okay.

But these might be bad news for those who like to upgrade their devices to the latest releases of Garmin...

[pangitpilot]

Android for RG getting close

Hey Guys, I have actually produced my first version of the RG Maps on an Android, totally off line with routing. (Have been working on this for over a year now)

It used the exact same maps as the GPS uses. It was a test app, but it worked.

Right now we are looking at how we can encrypt the map to protect the data and prevent it being used against RG's policies.

We are thinking about pricing the app at around p2000 with lifetime software upgrades, etc, using same types of maps for contributors and public use, etc

If it were available, with routing, track recording, etc, would you use it?

Would like to hear thoughts and input on this. No point in investing a lot of resources and time if no one wants it and prefers to use the Garmin GPS devices.

Cheers

PP

[jnieurzyla]

I will answer both Borgie and Pangpilot on my thoughts if that is ok.

It has been recognised that Philippines along with some other countries is classed as a dumping ground for equipment going or is already obsolete, we also see that in food etc. So yes, we will be seeing GPS units arriving here long after their selling date, but only if there is enough persons wanting to buy them, lets hope they see a good demand here.

As for making this product a commercial unit, I believe 2k is reasonable, but once people pay for it, they will not want to work as hard to improve the maps, except maybe for their own immediate area, but there again, how many do this today when the software is free? Unless you offer discounts to those submitting data? and this would be via a voucher number, so it could be controlled.

Which goes back to my previous statement, that the data in RG is not above 70%, except maybe for Manila, as you are already aware most road tracking is taken from Google or Bing, and neither of these are upto date, and neither have actually covered the whole of the Philippines, but again maybe only 70% if even that.

There are other companies with more upto date scans of the Philippines, is there a way we can access this data and update the maps, if we do go commercial then maybe we can purchase the rights of access to use it?

We could ask Snowden if he can get get us copies of the NSA maps hahahaha.

John

[pangitpilot]

Hi John, for clarification, incentive to contribute will be exactly as it is now. The app will actually authenticate against the forum to get the current status of a persons contributions.

Anyone can get the NON-Contributors map, they just have to be a member of the forum. To get the Contributors Map, you have to maintain Contributor Status. Nothing will change. That is the incentive to keep updating and it has worked so well to date. I would hazard a guess that it may possibly increase contributions. The reason I say this is that we plan offer in the second release the ability to upload tracks and POI data direct from the app to the forum for map improvement (Subject to there being enough apps in use to make this worth the effort). So the convenience factor may be an incentive for more people to collect and upload data. Probably the Judge will be a lot busier

The App itself is privately funded, by me and a small group of additional people, which is what the suggest P 2,000.00 goes towards. Paying for the cost of development, upgrades and the servers to run it all. It would still be cheaper than a GPS but with all the same functionality (and more), and for those with tired old eyes, like me, putting it a wide screen android is an added bonus.

We may offer a lower priced version, but the trade off is that it will require an on-line presence so that we can display advertising revenue to help pay the costs of keeping the system operational and ongoing development.

We will not be, and never will charge for the maps, they belong to Roadguide, we are just making them available to the RG Community on the latest technology. The Roadguide Community has full control over the map, version releases, etc. We will only make a new version available when the bosses of RG say so

Cheers

PP

[pangitpilot]

There are other companies with more upto date scans of the Philippines, is there a way we can access this data and update the maps, if we do go commercial then maybe we can purchase the rights of access to use it?
John

John, which companies are more up to date do you think? I am Curious about that ..

From my perspective, and as a user riding all over the phils, RG is the most up to date in terms or roads. It does lack a lot of POI's but those that are there are generally so because a RG member actually went there and logged it. I use this to determine where to stay, where to eat, etc when on the road and so far, it has not let me down yet.

Cheers

PP

[jnieurzyla]

I was referring to other basic satellite mapping sources supplied to military etc, not gps maps.

I have not seen or used any other gps software than RG for Philippines.

Sorry if I raised your hopes up,

John

[pangitpilot]

HaHaHa,

OSM does a lot of tracing, Bing has made their maps available to the OSM community for tracing. Tracing Google is in breach of copyright, and often suffers from tile misalignment. I just checked a few places in the hills in Negros a few days ago, and if you believe the gps, Google maps placed my bike in the middle of rice paddies where as RG was spot on. (At least I was on a road and not a rice paddy)

The problem with Tracing Sat Images is that there are errors induced by offsets with aligning the images in the tracing program, also the processing algorithms may introduce a difference, then you have datum and Ellipsoid transformations to account for as well as 10 m potential errors in GPS positions, so it is quite possible that some traces could be 20-50 meters out.

RG is quite unique around the world, it requires an actual GPS trace, which is as good as it gets. I really think that reverting to Tracing from Sats will ultimately degrade the reliability of the map for Road navigation, which what RG is for, and to be honest, traces from inexperienced people who do not know how to read or align sat images can do more harm than good.

Having said all that, Sat images are a GREAT QA source to check how good a map is. I have done that and RG is right up there in terms of accuracy for me.

Kudos to the RG dudes, its a lot of work, but it pays off with as accurate a map as it is possible civilians to make.

Now, lets get a hold of Snowden and see what he can get. That stuff is down to the cm.

Cheers

PP

[jnieurzyla]

PP,

While I agree with you about the accuracy of using google etal, at the same time, doing the tracks from their images, does allow us to lay out a basic map of the area and included towns and village, which to date do not exist with RG.

My only wish really, is that these companies actually complete their imaging, so that we have a basis to work with, the details for RG are up to the members to complete over time.

Provided the moderators can keep up with the submissions


John